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Friday 19th June 2009, 8:24pm

Source: Poker Grump

Getting a count

Yesterday while watching Cardgrrl at the World Series of Poker, a small rule-related controversy came up related to getting a count of chip stacks. One player raised, another reraised. The first raiser asked for a count of how much the reraiser still had behind. The player responded by separating his chip stacks for clear view, but didn't count them or give a verbal response. The dealer then reached over, counted them out, and told the questioner the total.

Some of the players at the table thought this improper, and one even stopped a convenient floor person to ask (not so much for this particular situation as for future reference) whether that was kosher. These players had been under the impression that one was entitled to a countdown of an opponent's chips only if that opponent had bet them all; otherwise, one was supposed to rely on a visual estimation.

I was surprised to learn that some believed this, as I don't recall ever encountering a situation in either a cash game or tournament where the request for a dealer count (if the player in question will not do it himself) was refused or even questioned as being out of line. Still, I couldn't be 100% sure, because I had never had occasion to look it up.

Well, now I have. I found nothing about it in Robert's Rules, in the Tournament Directors Association rules, or in the WSOP rules. I also didn't find anything in the Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook. But the best two rule books in print do specifically cover this question, and they agree on the answer:

Cooke's Rules of Real Poker, by Roy Cooke and John Bond, p. 47:

8.01.08. Right To Know Money

A player has the right to know the
amount of money an opponent has in play. All players are entitled to an
unimpeded view of the chips and cash of all opponent, and a count of an
opponent's cash and chips. That said, a player shall not unreasonably slow down
the game by repeatedly asking for a countdown of his opponents.

The Rules of Poker: Essentials for Every Game, by Lou Krieger and Sheree Bykofsky, pp. 50-51:

2.26 Chips In Full View

Players have an absolute right to know how
much money every opponent at the table has in play. Consequently, all money in
play shall be in full view at all times. Before acting in pot-limit or no-limit
games, a player has the right to ask the dealer to "count down" his opponent's
chips.

So there you go.

I don't know where began the idea that a player had to rely on his own ability to estimate an opponent's chip stack, but I had never heard it before yesterday, and as far as I can tell it has no support in standard sources for poker rules.

I think the rule as quoted above also makes best sense. You can't rely on the opponent to do the count (because they may screw it up, deliberately or otherwise, particularly in a moment of high-intensity pressure). Also, players vary in their visual acuity, and a rule that penalized a player for not being able to see the length of the table clearly would be unfair.

If any reader has come upon a casino that did not allow the dealer to do a countdown, either in cash games or tournaments, and forced players to rely on their own estimating ability, I'd like to hear about it via the comments.

19th October 2009 3:08pm

Source: Poker News Headlines

Is SEGA Poker On The Way?

Video game provider SEGA could be set to launch their own poker and casino platforms following the granting of a gambling licence by the Alderney Gambling Control Commission today.

18th October 2009 10:25am

Source: GoodLuck Poker Blog

The 5 Dumbest Things I Ever Did Playing Poker

As with anything new in someone's life - whether it's a new job, or a new recipe or even a new game, you have to learn about it before you can say you understand it. Same thing goes for poker.

17th October 2009 10:32pm

Source: Poker News Daily

Full Tilt Responds to Poker Bot Lawsuit

Online poker room Full Tilt Poker is known for keeping mum when it comes to its legal and business matters, but the company broke its silence to comment on a recent lawsuit by former customers Lary Kennedy and Greg Omotov.

16th October 2009 7:02pm

Source: TJ Cloutier

From Canada to Texas: Football & Poker

Anybody who sees me at a poker table says that I look like a football player. And of course, that's what I was in my youth. After I got out of the Army, I signed on as with the Montreal Allouettes, where I played first string tight end until I was traded to the Toronto Argonauts.

14th October 2009 8:05pm

Source: Poker News Daily

Doyle Brunson Inducted into Hardin-Simmons University Athletic Hall of Fame

Legendary poker player Doyle Brunson will be feted yet again on Friday night, but not for any of his performances over his 50-plus year career in the game of poker.

13th October 2009 6:50pm

Source: PokerListings.com

WSOP introducing November Nine Academy

The final table of the World Series of Poker Main Event represents the pinnacle of a poker player's career, but every player has to start somewhere.

12th October 2009 10:05am

Source: Poker King Blog

A.J. Benza Out as Co-Host of High Stakes Poker

When "High Stakes Poker" returns for its sixth season in February of 2010, there will be one major change - A.J. Benza will no longer be a part of the show.

9th October 2009 5:18pm

Source: Poker News Daily

Aaron Gustavson Defeats Peter Eastgate in EPT London

As the great wrestler Ric Flair said, ?To be the man, you gotta beat the man!? In this week?s finale of the European Poker Tour?s (EPT) London stop, Aaron Gustavson did just that, besting reigning World Series of Poker (WSOP) Main Event Champion Peter Eastgate heads-up.

7th October 2009 7:04pm

Source: PokerListings.com

durrrr Challenge: The half way mark and more

Possibly getting underway with the half-way goal in mind, the latest session in the durrrr Challenge only ended after a total of 1,063 hands were played.

6th October 2009 6:36pm

Source: Poker News Daily

Doyle Brunson Advocates WSOP Europe Venue Change

Even though he has more than 50 years in the poker world under his belt, poker legend Doyle Brunson continues to be one of the leaders in the community, advocating suggestions for improvements to the industry.

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